![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
tos schmos
https://fail-fandomanon.dreamwidth.org/345071.html?thread=1996634863#cmt1996634863
Wait, so pillowfort didn’t just announce that drawings of prepubescent characters aren’t allowed after people decided to migrate there from Tumblr (which is just bad timing), they actually banned someone for posting clearly marked loli without even telling them it was a bannable offense?
While I’d prefer that not be in the TOS of a site that capitalized on people running afoul of idiot censors, I wasn’t necessarily going to die on that hill. (Though I did think their tos sounded like it might ban, say, flashback scenes in a graphic novel depicting a character’s csa, and I think that seems... a bit lacking in nuance of so.)
But not letting someone know loli is banned and banning that person entirely rather than sending a heads up or just deleting the post in question?
Yeah, I’m less okay with that. Loli is not against US law; this person’s ignorance of the rules wasn’t about being an Illegal Thing Doer, but about... well, I could be wrong, but my guess is the mods seeing something they’d meant to ban but never mentioned and losing their shit.
Which I’d get if it was something obscure they hadn’t thought of that was clearly iffy, but if people are fleeing Tumblr, where antis yelling about “pedos” Are basically fandom herpes?
Not Very Thought Out.
Wait, so pillowfort didn’t just announce that drawings of prepubescent characters aren’t allowed after people decided to migrate there from Tumblr (which is just bad timing), they actually banned someone for posting clearly marked loli without even telling them it was a bannable offense?
While I’d prefer that not be in the TOS of a site that capitalized on people running afoul of idiot censors, I wasn’t necessarily going to die on that hill. (Though I did think their tos sounded like it might ban, say, flashback scenes in a graphic novel depicting a character’s csa, and I think that seems... a bit lacking in nuance of so.)
But not letting someone know loli is banned and banning that person entirely rather than sending a heads up or just deleting the post in question?
Yeah, I’m less okay with that. Loli is not against US law; this person’s ignorance of the rules wasn’t about being an Illegal Thing Doer, but about... well, I could be wrong, but my guess is the mods seeing something they’d meant to ban but never mentioned and losing their shit.
Which I’d get if it was something obscure they hadn’t thought of that was clearly iffy, but if people are fleeing Tumblr, where antis yelling about “pedos” Are basically fandom herpes?
Not Very Thought Out.
no subject
no subject
Would’ve been fine if they’d included it from the get go, but argh.
I was really hoping for “tumblr with ao3’s tos.”
Failing that I would have been okay with “we’re close to ao3 with respect to written work, but drawn work is different as we see it, and here’s what we’ll ban.”
But this? Nah.
no subject
It's not a good sign, but actually being responsive to complaints is probably good. Honestly if they get flooded with antis complaining about age-gap relationships or some shit they'll probably make some very clear guidelines on what is allowed.
no subject
Instead, they handled it badly.
no subject
It's basically the handling of the situation that's put me off, along with seeing walls of comments in some of the staff posts asking when a lot of the fictional content that I personally like will be banned. Like, yeah, I can't see my time on PF going well if that's the vocal attitude.
no subject
no subject
I don’t like what falls under ‘child rape/sexualisation is sexy/good’. At all. Rather have that fictional content and anyone who likes it away from me. But that sudden tos change is very...bad. And we don’t know *who* made that decision.
Thou there needs nuance on the topic bc ‘don’t depict your abuse ever because it’s perverted and corrupting :)’ is. Bad.
I said this on twitter too, but does anyone know *who* the PF admins and mods *are*?
I don’t like em not having a human presence of some kind myself—I can get why not if dealing with antis you’d want anomity—but idk. We know the people who run DW rather then a faceless tumblr style mod.
Also if they really didn’t think about content they might wanna ban...then I don’t think they thought *any* of this through well enough. I’ve been around a site/admins that was working out a TOS, you have to think of *everything* you can.
no subject
1. Having been traumatized myself, I know firsthand that having awful experiences gives you WEIRD THOUGHTS sometimes. And one of those weird thoughts seems to be, for many people, “would I be okay today if I had controlled this experience?” And given that I feel like I can’t determine without knowing someone personally and closely whether they’re predatory or whether they were prey.
2. When I was younger I lurked on some yaoi scanlation communities on LJ, and every once in a blue moon someone would post shota in communities that didn’t ban it. So I saw it on occasion. Usually skipped it, but yeah I was curious what exactly was so terrible, so I’ve seen it. And... it didn’t make me desire boys, or think some boys are mature enough to want sex, or that grooming is okay. It just looked like... a story, where the characters weren’t behaving in realistic ways.
And I may have been naive, but from the comments to those posts, If didn’t seem to me that the other posters liked kids. It seemed like they also were reading it as “an unrealistic wotk of fiction in which this type of activity doesn’t do the harm it would do in real life.”
So... maybe I should never have looked at it. Maybe that was in itself a wrong thing to have done. But I don’t subscribe to this weird belief that pedophilia is contagious, because I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone catch it.
no subject
And my empathy juice + my lizard brain disgust function = ‘nope nope nope nope’
I had some bad shit happen as a kid, and yeah. ‘What if I controlled this’ I 100% get.
And ‘prove your traumatised’ or the idea you can tell if someone’s traumatised because they write the ‘right’ stuff. Is bad.
I also hate the idea that...looking at a thing is corrupting. Deeply and viscerally. Tumblrs whole ‘pedos die’ thing gave me intrusive thoughts and a mental breakdown.
And...I trust no government to ban the ‘right’ content. I live in the UK, I saw what the Tory’s porn laws are like. Don’t trust people much either *looks at PF*
Though I will say I think ‘spaces without this content ever’ are not a bad thing—I’m in a few which manage to operate with nuance and allow aging up, ageplay ect.
I think...if someone pretty much drew lolicon...I’d just. Avoid the heck outta them. Idk.
My brain p much looks at lolicon kinda stuff and doesn’t think my strong veiws on ‘don’t ask for censorship ect’ but ‘freind was hurt by this’
...which I don’t think is bad so long as ‘brain feels a feel’ doesn’t lead to ‘time to scream at ao3 to be taken down’
no subject
I mean, I don’t necessarily LIKE it but telling them not to draw it just seems to... not recognize how humans work.
no subject
But because it’s not something other people join me in large groups to condemn as disgusting or gross, I have to confront “hey some people’s reaction is that that isnt gross, or that reading or writing about it is helpful to them.” I can’t read stuff my own gf is currently writing, but I’d never tell her not to write it, and if it got tossed I’d be very very angry.
I think the fact that I have hard squicks like that that others don’t generally have makes it easier for me to see people’s squicks about this similarly.
no subject
I get what you mean about finding it easier to defend it.
And I have similar feels over ageplay which gets the ‘this is evil and bad!’ treatment a *lot*.
I...don’t think I’m..gonna have that seeing it simmlar myself really. But I understand even if my brain doesn’t.
no subject
So I can profoundly not like it, but I can’t really condemn it? If that makes sense.
I’d ban it if it were clear to me that the community of people trading it ot making it saw things differently but I’d need proof they did first.
no subject
But I still can’t...yeah. Point and say ‘I’m okay with this’ personally?
I understand logically, I just...can’t?
I have myself seen parts of that community turn out to be dodgey towards irl kids in provable ways. Or at least enough of a Venn diagram cross over to be wary as heck.
And a cross over with the MAP community, who I...do not trust very much. That’s my bit of local reasoning for my veiws.
And I dunno. I just...see nuance around the topic but also...there’s stuff I’m just not okay with. I don’t feel like I can logic those feelings away.
I’ve been...made to logic away fear or discomfort before by someone bad—Not suggesting I’m being made to do that now
but it’s why Im...struggling to go ‘yep logically this is fine’?
(I’m not gonna pass moral judgment on other for feeling differently, bc I get *why*)
Idk. I just...dunno. I’m aware I might be hypocritical, or illogical. I just..can’t make myself feel okay with some stuff.
(And again, I also strongly believe asking for censorship is *bad* I’d rather be in a world with...stuff I nope at...then trusting anyone in corporations or government. I don’t want a wasteland)
no subject
I'm just talking about the thing, not saying you need to stop feeling things about it!
no subject
I apologise if I sounded defensive in the way I was talking, I kinda...need to work on not doing that subconsciously. XP
no subject
As in, on purpose by the thing, not ‘I saw the TW saying Overlord/Fort Max torture noncon fic and ignored it’ XP
As for the next thing, strong brain feels for me again. I’m caught between
Logic-
‘yes, telling people not to draw won’t work anyway, spite art is a thing, nor will it stop all kids being hurt’
And
Emotions-
*angry brain disgusted yelling’ + ‘high empathy reaction for freinds’ + ‘emotion feelings that stuff of kids is wrong’
It’s messy because listening to my logical thoughts is important, but my emotional thoughts also count. I can’t dimiss my logic, but I can’t dismiss my feelings either.
no subject
Like, I always figured it was “Harry Potter is 13 in the book I’m making fanart of, so he’s also 13 in my doujinshi.”
no subject
If it was possible to make an effective rule on which art is not okay and which art is, I'd be alright with it - but they just say "There is a gray area and uhhh we'll know it when we see it." BAsically giving them the freedom to delete whatever they want.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
Ultimately, as wary as I am of banning content, this policy wouldn't necessarily have been a dealbreaker for me. Most of fandom could have survived this. But the way they went about it! That's the thing that really makes me nervous.
1. They deleted someone's blog BEFORE announcing the tos change. That's just....so bad. What's preventing them from doing this again? It creates a bunch of uncertainty, you can do nothing wrong according to the rules you've been told and still wake up one day to your blog being deleted for something you never could've predicted.
2. No warnings, just deletion. This also makes me nervous, especially since the policy is so vague. They decide you're in violation of the policy and then boom, you're gone, no chance to take down or backup any of your stuff.
3. It's at moderator discretion, but there doesn't appear to be an appeal policy. All it takes is one overzealous mod to really mess things up, especially if you can't appeal it or it results in insta-deletion.
All of that put together is enough to make me a bit leery of the site. I don't know, maybe they'll get it together and write a clear and coherent policy, set up an appeals process, and promise to never delete blogs before TOS changes again. If they do, I think it could potentially work out. If they don't, who knows. Could be mostly fine, could be a disaster. I'll be interested to see what happens.
no subject
If you're here from Tumblr I'd prefer to know who you are before I grant access to locked posts/do the equivalent of follow you back, but otherwise go ahead. :-)
And yeah, that's more my problem than the ban. Like I said I would have preferred an AO3like TOS because it aligns more with my personal views, but I wouldn't have left over it. I don't have any need for that content.
But I've run afoul of TOSes before and my big problem with them is that very often they have policies that come across to me less as "we thought about this and decided to ban X because Y" and more "well, some content sort of like that might be okay, but don't be TOO on the nose," and that doesn't so much come across to me as "don't glorify this" as "don't talk/think about this."
Like, I remember when I was a college student and curious about kink, and I looked up the obscenity statutes in my area to see what I could and couldn't post on the webspace at me dot wherever dot edu, and the specific wording I still recall was "depictions of sadomasochistic abuse." And... knowing how conservative a lot of this state is, that probably meant "we assert that BDSM is inherently abusive" but my brain kept going "but what if you don't think all sadomasochistic activity is abuse? what then?"
So I'm usually wary of TOSes or laws or whatever else, because very often they boil down to "we're not going to ask what the context was in which you created or presented this, we're just going to assume you are motivated by whatever we're afraid of."
When humans typically have very varied reasons for engaging with any content, controversial or upsetting content especially.