Uncharitable

[stainless]

...y’know, I think I just realized why that “WE’VE ACHIEVED SOMETHING” panel from MTMTE always makes me feel weirdly uneasy rather than amused

because how depressed are you at baseline if achieving “something” is the threshold for celebration? Like, it’s not “we did this difficult thing” (even though that’s likely the cause for the banner) or “we achieved something this week” or “this month” or even “this hekavorn”

so my brain parses it like “ooh, we finally went against type and DID SOMETHING. Sarcastic yay.”

like, I know the thing is supposed to be self deprecating British humoUr but my brain reads it like how I feel when i’m convinced I’m not worth much.

that I think was my whole problem with that series—it was clever but my mind parsed it as overwhelmingly despairing. The Decepticons turned into a colossal mistake, the one guy who redeemed himself ultimately ended up executed or put away for eternity by an evil authority everyone nonetheless had to bow to, a whole bunch of guys died just For The Feels as far as I could tell...

other people read it as “masterful tragic playing with my feels” and I read it as “overwhelmingly despairing in tone” and “for the love of Primus please give me some sort of crowning moment of awesome no matter how ridiculous because I HONESTLY CAN’T ANY MORE”

Comments

[raisedbymoogles]

yyyyyyeah, that's part of the reason why I can't stand MTMTE too. I read to escape from my brainweasels telling me I'm worthless and everything is awful, I don't need them validated.

[stainless]

Wow, thank you! I mean I’m sorry you didn’t like the thing, but... I felt like everyone else found the thing down to earth and relatable and I was just like “You ruined a perfectly good race of space robots is what you did. Look at them, they’ve got anxiety.”

[stainless]

Megatron suddenly fretting about all the people he killed especially. “I didn’t realize genocide was bad until JUST NOW OH NO.”

Bitch, you’re Megatron. PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER.

[raisedbymoogles]

It wasn't even a redemption arc. He just became a sad old man for no reason.

[stainless]

THANK YOU. Even once I got past being offended it straight up baffled me. I literally could not figure out what characterization would even possibly lead to that point.

[astolat]

hahaha I want this on a t-shirt.

[stainless]

Hell yeah.

[raisedbymoogles]

YOU ARE NOT ALONE. I'm staying right here in my G1 sandbox, so there.

[stainless]

*brofist*

[greyliliy]

I had to stop reading long before that (I couldn't stand how he wrote Rodimus, I'll be honest) but you're not wrong. MTMTE always had a very somber, depressing tone to it under all the forced humor and supposedly tender moments. Every time something good happened, it tended to get snatched away fairly soon and replaced with something depressing.

[stainless]

Yeah. Really the only thing that felt like genuine character growth to me was CD-RW. As soon as that arc ended I was just like blaaAaaaAArg.

You know what it vibed like to me? Like tumblr kids and their witty jokes that actually mean “I am profoundly mentally ill and in constant pain.”

I’m not surprised Tumblr loved it, now that I think about it.

[greyliliy]

Yeah, self depreciating humor gets tiring after a while...

[stainless]

People kept going “jro is so much better than this other writer who just wants to write robots punching” and it drove me nuts, because I felt like “okay take your cyberprozac and stop being all fake deep and beat the shit out of each other please”

[greyliliy]

No arguments here. Though while I'll admit JRO had a few good moments (I still really do enjoy everything about Tyrest in his first appearance & that short Delphi arc), I still like the other authors who've worked on the series? They wrote good stuff...that he ignored.

[stainless]

Yeah. I’m still pissed that he basically completely retconned Megatron: Origin to be about... things it was not at all about, just because it helped him tell the “no one is evil, just misguided” story he felt like telling.

That I think was the most annoying bit for me. That even mechs like Tarn and Overlord who were ostensibly supposed to be terrifying ended up to be whiny and insecure once you got to know what was really motivating them.

I’m okay with characters having flaws but jro just reads like “everyone is a loser and always will be” and ugh wow.

[greyliliy]

For real. The best part of Megatron: Origin was "Guy with good intentions fell & he fell hard." I love redemption arcs too, but at least let some bad guys stay bad guys, please.

[stainless]

Huh, I read it differently. I read it as “guy assumed that he was supposed to have good intentions because his society said so. Guy discovered that limited him and went oh hell no.”

The idea that he was someone who wanted to be nonviolent but saw no alternative after Whirl beat him up just makes me Exorcist flavors of head twisty.

No, dude. The whole point of Megatron was that he’s someone who doesn’t buy into that way of looking at things at all. If you want someone who does there are a fuckton of characters in this franchise, go find one.

[stainless]

I mean, FFS, his response to someone calling him a psychopath (someone who's just... bad by nature, as I took it) is to brutally murder them. If that's not "I chose this and fuck you for insinuating otherwise" I don't know what is.

[stainless]

Hell, that was why I loved it--because it was an alternative to "villains are just heroes who make big mistakes." It allowed for the possibility of villains who know exactly what they're doing, considered the alternatives, and decided they like it that way.

That was so refreshing and I loved it so much. And then "no, it's better to be sad and confused and not know yourself at all than be yourself if you're Bad." Like, JRo, were you asking my brainweasels what to write about or...?!

[greyliliy]

I think I got "Good intentions gone bad" from the extra stuff in MTMTE mixed with the original, though. Since in the story by itself he doesn't really have "intentions" until much later after he's already in a position of power within the underworld.

I pulled the book out to reread & refresh, and if I take Megatron: Origin completely stand alone Megatron strikes me as someone who was a regular joe who was caught up in things bigger than himself and then takes it as his own and rolls with it.

Though he does start as nonviolent to an extent. He freaks out after he kills the guard & when they escape the prison ship he only really helps out because Rumble & Frenzy ask and then act without his answer. At that point, might as well help and escape ("[Killing that guard] was unintentional, I shouldn't be here."). He also spares the crew of the ship and while he says "If we kill them, they'll come after us" but I always got it more as a way to cover up the fact he didn't want to shed blood--which is backed up later in the Gladiator ring when he doesn't kill his opponent until he gets egged on and encouraged by the crowd and caves to their demands.

I sort of love that Megatron then decides at that point "If I'm going to be here and do this, I'm going to be here and do it right" and embraces the roll he's been given and all the power that comes with it. As more and more people join him the power gets bigger and his stage gets bigger until he declares the "New Arena" to be the planet. He gets swept away in everything that's going on around him and makes it his own & decides if they're going to look up to him as a leader, he'll be one.

He goes from "That was unintentional, I shouldn't be here" to "I will create desolation and call it peace!" His end goals always struck me as "I'm going to destroy everything" as his path to equality, which is definitely a "fall" for someone who started with leanings toward mercy.

And through most of the IDW run, he certainly embraces that philosophy with excessive violence and never once hesitating to turn that violence on his own when they step out of line (Canon shot to Starscream's chest, anyone?). He does whatever he wants at that point because he's strong enough to do whatever he wants.

I'll admit some bias though, I'm a fan of chaotic, selfish evil characters, so I always enjoy it more when Megatron leans that way ("I'm destroying things because I want to and enjoy it") over anything else.

I like Transformers because I like watching robots beat each other up and I always loved the Decepticons because (in the original G1) they were always this group of characters that were bad guys for being bad guys' sake. They liked breaking things and that was all the motivation they needed. The political half of this series has always been sort of on the back burner for me. XD;

But that all turned into a ramble and I'm not sure how much sense I made. Lol. It was fun rereading one of my favorite books though. It's been too long since I looked at this fandom. xD

*****

On side notes, I still love Starscream gave him his canon: Megs: "Hmm, yes. There's something about this." Star: "Heh...something to make sure a fair fight is the other guy's problem."

"I've heard it said that we only gain wisdom through suffering, and tonight I intend to make you very wise." is also still my favorite Megatron quote. XD

[stainless]

I guess the thing is... what does a fall mean eaxctly? Because if becoming evil is inherently "a fall" then sure, that was a fall. But if becoming more sure of yourself and confident isn't a fall, then... that's what I really prefer happening to that character. I don't mean I never want him to regret anything ever or see the value of mercy in any way at all, but by and large... I want him to be someone who isn't motivated by that sort of thing.

Which is why MTMTE never worked for me and even... oh lord that Wreckers one? Didn't really grab me the way they did other people I don't think.

I wouldn't mind a redemption arc for Megatron (well I still would dislike it but I wouldn't be so darned upset by it) if it showed him deciding something he was doing was wrong by his own lights--like, say, "I thought murdering everyone made perfect sense but it just creates Autobots who don't just want revenge but can claim the moral high ground believably enough to never just fuck off, maybe I should be merciful for pragmatic reasons and hey, i remember how this felt"

But "I got carried away into killing everyone" just... no. I mean, if we're trying to present the guy as a genocidal figure (and the "field of flowers" makes me think that was the intended reading), genocidal leaders don't start off sensible and then decide to kill all the Xs. They firmly believe the Xs are evil already, and it's the people they slowly convince to agree.

[greyliliy]

When I hear a character "fell," I usually associate that with "goes evil." It's very possible I'm mixing up idioms. XD;

To each their own on the Megatron front. I find genocidal characters interesting in fiction. The person who can kill without blinking (serial killers, assassins, warmongers, etc.) has always been a fav character type. Megaton would fit into that "Warmonger" slot & so "I originally didn't like killing but the more I did it and the more I realized I was good at it, it became more appealing" storyline feels more up my alley plot wise.

My personal favorite Megatron is "I'm going to keep fighting until everyone is dead" sort of warmonger. Definitely aware that's not an interpretation for everyone & it probably influences how I read his character more than it should but eh. That's what fandom & head canons are for. XD

[stainless]

"I originally didn't like killing but the more I did it and the more I realized I was good at it, it became more appealing"

If that's what you're getting out of it, I think we're probably not disagreeing on much of substance :-)

"When I hear a character "fell," I usually associate that with "goes evil." It's very possible I'm mixing up idioms. XD;"

Okay, yeah. To me it also has a connotation of like "became sad or tragic," and what I liked about *the way I read* Megatron: Origin was that it seemed like his change was positive for him in some weird way. I liked that because it felt like a break from "evil always somehow secretly pwns itself in the end." (Which is not a bad trope in itself it's just... it's the norm, so seeing something different from it makes me EEEEEEEEEEEEE in excitement when it's done well.)

Which is why I was all HARRUMPH when Megatron turned himself in and became Sad, ostensibly just because That's What Evil Does rather than for what I saw as a clear in-character reason.

[greyliliy]

Oh, I'll definitely agree with that. Megatron definitely took a step up in life after Megatron Origin. XD From Miner to Conquerer is a bit of a boost. Whether that's a good thing or not might depend on who you talk to, lol (Good for him, maybe not so good for the rest of the universe... XD).

Megatron sad and pouting is indeed a tragedy. If they were going to go redemption, a simple "This one particular death" (probably Bumblebee, and Megs wearing Bee's badge in his honor was like the only reason I'd accept Megs with an Autobot badge) was one too far and I've seen how out of control this war has gotten and it should stop before we all die and there's nothing left." Might have been better? I dunno. That's where I would have gone. No punishments from the Autobots, etc. Just a genuine truce kinda deal.

[stainless]

Yeah, that's really the only thing I can see as believable.

[astolat]

Yes, I'm with you -- I felt with a lot of MTME that they were stretching out a fairly small amount of story, and this was an example of hanging a lantern on the fact that nothing was happening and they weren't actually achieving anything, which is both boring and depressing, and mostly it was like a bad office full of infighting and pettiness, lol.

IDK, I don't care about 90% of the characters they crammed the stage with and didn't want to care, so perhaps I am not the target audience, but even the ones I did care about I felt were badly handled. Megatron's redemption story in particular just didn't fundamentally work for me because they kept not SHOWING critical parts of it. And then they shoved him into another universe and had him reappear at the last minute as a saintly Marty Stu with his cannon turned into a medical kit, and then right, to be executed or imprisoned forever despite this, I guess either because the writers felt (correctly) that they hadn't earned letting him go free, since they didn't SHOW any of the actual work he did becoming that guy, or because they felt (incorrectly) that it makes his arc more ~deep~ to have a depressing ending. :P

[stainless]

“with his cannon turned into a medical kit”

Oh my god am I glad I gave that one up. That mental image just... jeeeesus, no.

(Funny, in hindsight. People kept trying to get me to like his Megatron from the beginning, because of that “I’ll give up this cannon when war has no meaning any more” panel and my reaction was just “nope nope. Ooc as fuck. If war has no meaning, you’re not you.”

...huh. I was right. El oh el.)